賴聲川 華語世界戲劇變遷親歷者

Over the past few decades, Stan Lai has established a reputation as one of the Most celebrated Chinese-language playwrights and directors.

過去幾十年來，賴聲川已經成爲華語世界最具聲望的編劇和導演之一。

His works include more than 30 original plays, two feature films and four operas.

他的作品包括30多部原創戲劇、兩部電影、4部歌劇。

Mr Lai, who was born in the United States and is based in Taiwan, has written classics like Secret Love in Peach Blossom Land (1986), now an iconic play in contemporary Chinese theater, while still continuing to experiment with new forms, as seen in his eight-hour epic A Dream Like a Dream (2000), which has audiences sitting on swivel chairs in the center of the stage.

生於美國的賴聲川現居臺灣，除了寫下如今已成華語戲劇典範的《暗戀桃花源》（1986）這樣的經典，他還在持續進行着新形式的實驗，這在歷時8小時的鉅作《如夢之夢》中可以看到，該劇的觀衆需要坐在舞臺中央的旋轉觀衆區裏。

He is a co-founder of the Performance Workshop in Taiwan and the Wuzhen Theater Festival in China.

他與人合作在臺灣創辦了表演工作坊，在中國創辦了烏鎮戲劇節。

In 2015, he opened his first theater, Theater Above, a 699-seat venue in Shanghai.

2015年，他在上海創辦了自己的第一家劇院——有699座的上劇場(Theater Above)。

Most recently, he directed San Francisco Opera’s production of the Chinese classic Dream of the Red Chamber, which had its premiere last weekend.

近日他執導了舊金山歌劇院(San Francisco Opera)排演的中國古典劇目《紅樓夢》，該劇於上週末首演。

In a recent interview, Mr Lai spoke about changes in the theater industry in China and Taiwan and how his Buddhist beliefs influence his writing.

在最近的一次訪談中，賴聲川談到了中國和臺灣戲劇產業的變化，以及他的佛教信仰對寫作的影響。

When did you first start writing plays?

你是什麼時候開始寫戲的？

I started writing plays in 1983.

我最早寫戲是在1983年。

As a new teacher in Taiwan just having received my Ph.D. from Berkeley, I found a great lack of teaching materials for my students, who didn’t read English.

當時我剛剛拿到在伯克利的博士學位，到臺灣當教員，我發現沒有多少資料可供學生使用，他們又不能讀英文。

Since Taiwan had been under martial law for so long, there wasn’t a body of creative work — plays — and there were very few translated materials to fall back on as teaching material, so I decided to create my own.

當時臺灣因爲經過太長時間的戒嚴，沒有成體系的創作——即劇作，也很少有可以用於教學的翻譯資料，所以我決定自己創作。

What was the environment for theater in Taiwan like at the time?

當時臺灣的戲劇氛圍如何？

It was a time when there was no theater industry in Taiwan, so no professional anything — writers, directors, actors, designers, scene shops, etc.

那時候臺灣還沒有戲劇產業，所以全部都不是專業的——編劇、導演、演員、設計、道具等等。

Not even a theater with a fully functioning fly system.

甚至沒有一個劇場配備可以正常運轉的懸吊系統。

So my way of creating new works also was my way of conducting actor training and general training in creating works for the theater, with the larger context being the lack of theater facilities or even a style of training or performing.

因此我創作新劇的辦法，和我主導演員訓練以及戲劇創作一般訓練的方法是一樣的，大的背景是缺乏劇場設施，甚至沒有一種訓練或表演的風格。

The new works I was making reflected the fact that we were forming a new grammar of theater in the Chinese language, working in a vacuum with little or no points of reference from the past.

從我的新戲可以看到，我們正在用中文形成一種新的戲劇語法，這是從無到有的，幾乎無法從過去得到多少參考。

My fourth play, That Evening, We Performed Crosstalk (1985), was a breakout work.

我的第四部戲《那一夜，我們說相聲》（1985）是一個突破。

What was that play about?

那部戲講的是什麼？

That play dealt with the death of culture, cross talk in particular, and unexpectedly was a huge commercial success, at the same time reviving the dying traditional comic performing art called cross talk (xiangsheng).

它是在講文化的死亡——具體說就是相聲，沒想到在商業上非常成功，當時給相聲這門行將消亡的傳統幽默表演藝術帶來複興。

And so it set the mold for a new type of theater — commercially viable yet intellectually challenging.

這樣一來，它就給一種新型戲劇提供了模版——商業上可以成功，同時又具有智識上的挑戰。

We were doing serious theater, engaging our audiences in deep and essential dialogue, and at the same time creating a new audience.

我們當時在做嚴肅的戲劇，和我們的觀衆展開深刻而根本的交流，與此同時，我們也在建立一個新的觀衆羣體。

That was the excitement of our early works.

這是我們的早期作品讓人興奮的地方。

What we are witnessing in China today is not dissimilar.

和我們今天在中國看到的情形差不多。

How have your interests as a playwright changed since then?

那麼你對寫劇本的興趣此後有沒有變化？

My own personal evolution as a playwright went through an era of political change in Taiwan, where my work as many people see it contributed to the dialogue surrounding change.

我個人作爲一個編劇的變化過程，適逢臺灣的一個政治變革期，在很多人看來，我的作品對圍繞着變革展開的討論是有幫助的。

As I continued to evolve as a human being, I began to believe that politics is a smaller and lesser topic to deal with, much smaller than life itself, and the human forces shaping the external world are subservient to the forces shaping our inner world.

我自己作爲一個人在不斷成長，漸漸覺得政治話題越來越小，越來越不重要，比起生活本身是不足道的，人類塑造外部世界的力量，和塑造我們內心世界的力量相比，是次要的。

Thus my shift in focus from the external to the internal, most notably in A Dream Like a Dream.

所以我的轉變主要是從外到內，最顯著的是在《如夢之夢》這部戲上。

Talk a little bit about A Dream Like a Dream.

我們來談一談《如夢之夢》吧。

What inspired you to write it?

它的靈感來自於什麼？

The idea came to me when I was traveling in India in Bodh Gaya.

我是在印度菩提伽耶旅行的時候產生這個想法的。

I’ve been a practicing Buddhist for over 40 years.

我修佛已經有40多年了。

In the past, I’ve been quite reluctant to put my Buddhist practice into my work, but it was a moment when I was inspired to do so.

在過去，我非常不願意把自己作爲佛教徒的修行帶到我的作品裏，但在某一個瞬間，我受到啓發，覺得應該這樣做。

The whole eight-hour, very complicated story came to my mind in one piece, in one inspiration.

這個歷時8小時、非常複雜的故事，是在我頭腦裏一次性形成的，來自一個靈感。

How has politics affected the larger creative environment in Taiwan?

政治對臺灣整體上的創作環境有何影響？

As politics and society in Taiwan evolved, the acute confrontational stance of the two opposing parties has created a fatigue and distaste toward politics in society in general, including the artistic community.

在臺灣，隨着政治和社會逐步發展，兩大對立政黨激烈對抗的態勢，導致社會總體上對政治持疲勞和反感的態度，包括藝術界。

The constant ongoing daily exchange of attacks and vicious views in the media often seems to make life much more theatrical than theater could ever be, and in fact even more absurd and entertaining as well.

持續不斷的相互攻擊和媒體上的惡毒觀點，常常讓人覺得它們把生活變得遠比戲劇更戲劇化，實際上也更荒唐，更具娛樂意味。

This uncontrolled media violence has negated the possibility of meaningful dialogue, and any artist who wishes to engage the issues runs the risk of being immediately labeled this or that.

這種失控的媒體暴力讓進行有意義的對話的可能性成爲了泡影，任何一個希望參與相關問題的藝術家，都面臨着立即被貼上這樣或那樣的標籤的風險。

There is no space for objective and rational discourse.

沒有客觀和理性話語的空間。

That is why artists in Taiwan today naturally gravitate away from dealing with political issues.

這就是爲什麼在如今的臺灣，藝術家會自然而然地遠離政治問題。

How they find their expression is a question of their own personal growth and path.

如何找到自己的表達方式是他們自己的個人成長和道路問題。

I found mine in the deeper and larger domain that is called life itself.

我是在一個更深刻、更廣闊的領域找到自己的表達方式的，那就是生活本身。

What has been the biggest change in theater in mainland China over the last few decades?

大陸戲劇過去幾十年最大的變化是什麼？

Certainly the biggest changes have been the denationalization of theater and its increasing commercialization.

最大的變化當然是戲劇的去國有化和日漸增強的商業化。

So while it’s great that theater is growing at the pace it is, it is a little unfortunate that people there see theater as a lucrative business plan, as crazy as it sounds.

因此，儘管戲劇正在以目前的速度發展是好事，但有些遺憾的是，那裏的人認爲戲劇是一種極其有利可圖的商業計劃，儘管這聽上去很瘋狂。

I say crazy because in the U.S. it would never happen.

我說瘋狂是因爲在美國，永遠不會出現這種情況。

As a result, theater is underappreciated as a true, integral part of the cultural growth of a society.

因此，戲劇作爲社會文化發展真切且必不可少的一部分，並未得到充分重視。

That’s why things like the Wuzhen Theater Festival and my own theater in Shanghai mean so much to me.

這就是爲什麼像烏鎮戲劇節和我在上海的劇場這樣的事物對我來說意義重大。

We are working to counter those trends where you see investors coming in and trying to create a Chinese type of Broadway musical everywhere all the time.

我們在努力抗衡一些潮流。在那些潮流中，你會看到不斷有投資者進入這個領域，試圖在所有地方和所有時間裏創造一種中式百老匯音樂劇。

Your motivation for doing something is so important in shaping that thing.

如果要做一件事，動機對它的塑造非常重要。

And if your motivation is to make money, then it shapes it in a very odd way.

如果你的動機是賺錢，那麼這個動機會以一種非常奇怪的方式來塑造戲劇。

Theater becomes a very patronizing thing, and you’ll see that a lot in China — copying and pasting things together that they think will sell.

戲劇就變成了一種讓人厭棄的東西，在中國這種情況很常見——把自認爲能賣出去的東西複製粘貼，拼湊在一起。