同志偶像埃爾頓約翰與達倫沃克對談錄

It’s hard to imagine two people coming from worlds as different as those of Elton John and Darren Walker.

很難想像再找到兩個像埃爾頓·約翰(Elton John)與達倫·沃克(Darren Walker)這樣，來自如此截然不同背景的人。

Mr. John, 67, emerged from a village outside London (where he was born as Reginald Dwight) to become one of the most successful recording artists of all time. Twenty-two years ago, he created the Elton John AIDS Foundation, which has raised more than $300 million to date. (He was knighted by Queen Elizabeth in 1998.)

約翰先生，67歲，從出生於倫敦郊外的鄉下孩子（本名雷金納德·德懷特）變成史上最成功的發片藝人。22年前，他創辦了埃爾頓·約翰艾滋病基金會，截至目前該基金會籌得3億多美元（1998年獲伊麗莎白女王封爲爵士）。

Mr. Walker, 55, born in a charity hospital in Louisiana and raised by a single mother in rural Texas, became a white-shoe lawyer and investment banker, then a community activist and philanthropist. Last year, he was named the president of the Ford Foundation, where he oversees about $500 million in annual grants, and recently played a critical role in saving Detroit’s pensions and art collection in the city’s bankruptcy proceedings. He lives in Manhattan with his partner, David Beitzel, a contemporary art dealer.

沃克先生，55歲，出生於路易斯安那的一所慈善醫院，在德克薩斯州的鄉下由母親一人撫養長大，後來成爲了一名傑出的律師和投資銀行家，接下來又成爲社區活躍分子和慈善家。去年，他被任命爲福特基金會總裁，管理着每年約5億美元的撥款，不久前，他在底特律破產程序中挽救該城的養老金和藝術收藏方面發揮了關鍵作用。目前，他與伴侶、當代藝術交易商戴維·拜策爾居住在曼哈頓。

Still, the two found much in common when they met in the presidential suite of the Four Seasons Hotel in Washington, where Mr. John was staying. Surrounded by large photos of Mr. John’s two young sons, Zachary and Elijah, whom he is raising with his husband, David Furnish, the pair bonded over their childhood dreams and adult challenges; the way they came to grips with their sexual identity and outsider status; and their shared commitment to social justice and the elimination of H.I.V. and AIDS.

不過，兩人在約翰先生下榻的華盛頓四季酒店的總統套房裏見面後，卻發現他們之間其實有許多的共同之處。在約翰先生的兩名幼子扎沙裏耶和伊萊賈的多幅大照片（由他和丈夫戴維·弗尼什[David Furnish]一起撫養）的環繞下，當兩人談及童年的夢想以及長大後面臨的種種挑戰、各自處理性認同和局外人身份的方式，以及紛紛投身於根除艾滋病病毒和艾滋病、實現社會正義的事業時，又令他們一見如故。

Philip Galanes: How we operate as adults so often boils down to how we feel about ourselves as kids.

菲利普·加蘭（以下簡稱加蘭）：從大看小，成年的很多方面都可以追溯到孩童時代的自我認知。

Elton John: Well, I was scared stiff all the time.

埃爾頓·約翰（以下簡稱約翰）：嗯，我小時候一直就很害怕。

PG: Always in trouble?

加蘭：是因爲總闖禍嗎？

EJ: No, I was a good little boy, too scared to misbehave. But there was always tension in the house. My parents never should have gotten married, and I dreaded my father coming home. I knew there would be a fight, and it would be over me. My mother was more loving and lenient; my father was the real disciplinarian. He never wanted me to become a musician.

約翰：那倒沒有，我是一個聽話的小孩，從來不敢調皮搗蛋。但家裏的氣氛總是很緊張。我爸媽他們完全是結錯了婚，我很怕爸爸回家。因爲我知道他們一定會吵架，然後氣就撒到我身上。媽媽對我更好一些，也更慈愛一些；而爸爸真的是很嚴厲。他一直都不贊成我搞音樂。

PG: I nearly fell off my chair during your husband’s documentary about you (“Elton John: Tantrums and Tiaras”), when your mother says: “I don’t think your father loved you very much.”

加蘭：在你丈夫拍攝的紀錄片《埃爾頓·約翰的脾氣與頭冠》(Elton John: Tantrums and Tiaras)裏，我看到你媽媽說“我想你爸爸不是那麼喜歡你”時，驚得我幾乎從椅子上跌下來。

EJ: She was right. But it was more like he didn’t understand me. Still, he shaped the person I am today. My father’s been dead for 15 years, and I’m still trying to prove something to him. I’d love for it to have been different, for him to have said, “Well done.” But he never came to see me play. He never acknowledged my success. But I don’t hate him. He did the best he could.

約翰：她說的沒錯。但更準確的說法是，他不瞭解我。不過，正是他塑造了今天的我。雖然爸爸已經過世15年了，但我還是想向他證明什麼。我真心希望他不是這樣的，希望他能夠說一句“幹得好”。但是他從來不看我表演，也從來不承認我的成功。但我並不恨他。他已經盡力去做一個好父親了。

PG: Darren’s childhood sounds rough in a different way: Born in a charity hospital, raised by a single mom who worked as a nurse’s aide.

加蘭：達倫的童年聽起來是另一種不幸：出生在一個慈善醫院，由給護士當助手的媽媽一人養大。

Darren Walker: It was rough economically, but not emotionally. Listening to Elton made me realize: The last time I saw my father, I was 5 years old — and he’s still alive, still living in the same small town where I was born. But I wouldn’t know him if he walked through that door. But in some ways, it was liberating. My mother always told me she loved me. She affirmed my quirks and my differences, and that gave me confidence.

達倫·沃克（以下簡稱沃克）：在經濟上是一種不幸，但在情感上不是。聽埃爾頓在談他的童年時，我想起最後一次見到父親，是在我5歲的時候——那個時候他還健在，還生活在我出生的那個小城。但他若是進了我家門，我也不會認出他來。從某種程度上說，這也是一種解脫。媽媽總是跟我說她很愛我。我的古怪與與衆不同她都照單全收，這給我帶來了信心。

PG: And like Elton’s parents, she worked hard for your education.

加蘭：而且跟埃爾頓的父母一樣，爲了讓你能唸書，她也是很辛苦地工作。

DW: I remember standing on the front porch of this little shotgun house we lived in, and a lady walked up to my mother and said, “I’d like to enroll your son in a new program called Head Start.” It was the first year, and they were looking for children who fit my profile: poor, African-American, rural. My mother said: “Of course! Sign him up.” And there began my love of books and reading.

沃克：我記得有天我站在我家排房的前廊上，有一個女士走過來跟我媽媽說，“我想讓你的兒子加入我們的‘拔得頭籌’(Head Start)項目。”那是該項目的第一年，他們要找的正是我這樣的小孩：貧困、非裔美國人、住在鄉下。我媽媽說：“當然可以！給他把名報上。”從那時起，我開始了對書與閱讀的愛好。

EJ: Same here. I didn’t grow up with much. We didn’t have much money. But the books and gramophone records I had, I loved them and kept them pristine.

約翰：我也是這樣的。我的成長環境一般，家裏也不是太有錢。但我還是有自己的書和留聲機唱片，我好愛惜這些東西，把它們保存得跟新的似的。

DW: My grandmother was a domestic for a well-to-do family in Houston. And when we’d visit her, she would bring home things the family was giving away: a sweater with a Neiman Marcus label. Brooks Brothers, places I’d never heard of. But more importantly, she brought home all these books. I loved the art books. I’d get a brown paper bag from the Piggly Wiggly, and stuff it with books and clothes, and just luxuriate in them.

沃克：我的祖母（或外祖母）在休斯頓的一戶有錢人家當傭人。我們去她那裏玩的時候，她會把一些這家人不要的東西帶回家：尼曼·馬庫斯的毛衣，還有布魯克斯牌的衣服，這些名字我都從來沒聽說過。但最重要的是，她會把他們不要的書帶回家。我喜歡藝術類的書。我用一個從連鎖超市“小豬扭扭”拿的棕色紙袋，把這些書和衣服裝起來，覺得快活得不得了。

PG: It sounds as if these objects conjured up. ...

加蘭：聽起來這些東西像是施了魔法一般……

EJ: Another world! These objects I loved — the LPs, the singles, the books, the cowboy outfit — they took me out of where I was, and brought to a place I could only dream about.

約翰：它們構成了另一個世界！我愛的那些東西——密紋唱片、單曲唱片、書、牛仔用品什麼的，把我從現實中帶走，帶到一個夢中的世界。

PG: What were your first dreams for yourselves?

加蘭：你們最早的夢想是什麼？

EJ: I played piano at a very early age. It got me attention, and I liked it. I like making people happy. But music wasn’t my dream until I discovered Elvis Presley in 1957. I was sitting in the little barbershop in our village, waiting to have my hair cut, and I saw this picture of Elvis. He looked like an alien — really weird but amazing. And by coincidence, my mom brought home a copy of “Heartbreak Hotel” that week. How weird is that? And after I saw Elvis and heard his music, there was no going back.

約翰：我很小就開始彈鋼琴。它引起了我的注意，而且我也很喜歡它。我喜歡逗人開心。但直到我在1957年發現了貓王，音樂才成爲我的夢想。當時我坐在我們村的小理髮店裏，等着剪頭髮，然後我看見了貓王的照片。他看起來就像是一個外星人——很怪也很棒。巧的是，就在那周，我媽買回家他的唱片，那張《傷心旅館》。你說神不神？在看到他的照片後又聽到他的歌，然後就一發不可收拾。

DW: I was always dreaming of being someplace else, someplace that wasn’t a small town. I remember watching “Green Acres” on television. You know the part where Lisa sings that she loves Park Avenue, but she’s going to the farm? I used to scream at the TV, “Don’t do it!”

沃克：小時候我總是夢想着生活在其他地方，我不要在小城市呆着。記得在電視上看《綠色的田野》(Green Acres)。你還記得麗莎唱她喜歡公園大道，但準備去農場那一段嗎？當時我衝着電視大喊：“別去呀！”

EJ: I wanted to go to America. All the great music I listened to as a child came from here. I didn’t have any dreams of becoming a star. That’s just fate and life and God’s will.

約翰：那會兒我好想去美國。我小時候聽到的所有好聽的歌曲，都是美國歌。我從來沒想過當大明星。這是命運和人生的安排，是上帝的意志。

DW: But when I got to the other world, I was petrified. My first days at the University of Texas at Austin, which was reserved for Texas elite at the time, pushed me so far out of my element. The first time I was presented with a full place setting at dinner, I had no idea what to do.

沃克：但是當有機會來到另一個世界的時候，我簡直石化了。剛到德州大學奧斯汀校區的時候——當時這還是一個屬於德州精英的學校，一下子把我猛推到不得其所的境地。第一次用全套餐具吃飯的時候，我完全傻眼。

EJ: You didn’t know which one to pick up first. I was never taught that, either. Did people give you a hard time?

約翰：你不知道先拿哪一個。也沒有人教過我。其他人欺負你了嗎？

DW: People often say: “You were in the South. It must have been racist. You must have felt so excluded.” But I was embraced. I was class president and chairman of the Texas Student Union. But it was also confounding. I was at a party for students once at the governor’s mansion in Austin. And this lady walked towards me, and I extended my hand, and she said, “I’d like a gin and tonic, please.”

沃克：人們總是說，“你生活在南部，一定有嚴重的種族歧視。你一定感覺自己受到了排斥。”但大家接納了我。我是班長和德州學生會的主席。但也有尷尬的時候。有次我在奧斯汀的州長宅邸參加爲學生舉行的一個派對。有位女士衝我走過來，我伸出手，結果她說，“請給我來一杯金湯尼。”

PG: How did you cope when reality began to exceed your dreams?

加蘭：但現實開始超出你的想像時，你是怎麼處理的？

EJ: The first five years of my career, there was so much work and enjoyment. I was in America and successful, meeting people I never thought I’d meet — in art and entertainment and politics. I was a kid in a candy store. But I was very naïve. I saw someone taking cocaine, and I asked my manager what it was. I had no idea what a drug was. And that was when my journey changed.

約翰：我職業生涯的頭五年時間，有好多工作也有很多樂子。我在美國也非常成功，遇見各種我從未想過會遇到的人——藝術圈的也好，娛樂圈的也好，政壇的也好。我就像是小孩進了糖果店。但我太天真了。我看見有人在使用可卡因，我就問我的經紀人，那是什麼。我對毒品完全沒有概念。也就是在那個時候，我的人生之旅發生了轉變。

PG: What about the drugs appealed to you?

加蘭：你怎麼會對毒品感興趣的？

EJ: At school, I was never quite in the gang. So, when I got to the point when I was 28 and saw the cocaine, I thought, “Maybe I want to join the clique.” It was the worst decision I ever made. I thought, “I’ll join in, and they’ll accept me.” Remember, I hadn’t gotten my father’s acceptance, and that stays with you. It’s what drove me to work so hard and be so prolific. But cocaine got in the way.

約翰：在學校的時候，我不是特別合羣。所以，一步步地，在28歲的時候我看到了可卡因，我想，“也許我想加入這個小團體。”那是我所做過的最爲錯誤的決定。我想的是，“我要加入，他們會接納我的。”還記得吧，我沒有獲得父親的承認，這一直是我的心病。這驅使我非常努力的工作，使勁創作。但可卡因把我攔下了。

DW: I remember the first time someone offered me a joint. I said, “No, thank you!” I knew the implications for a low-income African-American male who might be arrested. A friend got arrested for smoking pot, and his father took care of it — like that! But I knew no one would take care of me. So I never took a puff.

沃克：我還記得第一次有人給我大麻的情形。我說，“不用了，謝謝你！”我知道這會讓一個低收入的非裔美國男人去坐牢的。我有個朋友就因爲抽大麻被抓起來了，是他父親把他給弄出來的——沒費什麼力氣！但我知道，我要抓進去了，沒人會把我撈出來。所以，我從來沒吸過毒。

PG: Do you ever stop noticing that you’re the only person of color, the only gay person sitting in the powerful conference room?

加蘭：在一些重要的場合，你是不是不用再去想自己是唯一的有色人種、唯一的同性戀？

EJ: Did you still encounter barriers?

約翰：你是否仍然遇到隔閡？

DW: There were certainly barriers. But I have to be African-American, and I have to be gay. That’s what I am.

沃克：當然還是有隔閡。但我就是非裔美國人，我就是一個同志。那就是真實的我。

EJ: Hooray!

約翰：說得太好了！

DW: At some of the tables I sit around, I have a lot of work to do, challenging stereotypes.

沃克：在我呆過的一些場合，有很多工作要做，我要挑戰類型化的刻板印象。

EJ: Pushing dominoes over.

約翰：把多米諾骨牌推倒。

DW: I was at a dinner party, and the person next to me was deriding all of the government’s poverty programs. And I said: “I benefited so much from the war on poverty. I was in Head Start. My college education was financed by Pell grants.” And his response sounded like, “Why can’t other black people be like you?” I had to remind him that even though talent is spread evenly across America, opportunity is not. There are a lot of people who think their success is completely a function of their talent.

沃克：有一次我參加一個晚宴，坐在我旁邊的一個人嘲笑所有的政府扶貧計劃。於是，我說：“我以前就是從貧困戰中獲益的人。我在‘拔得頭籌’項目裏面。我的大學教育，是由佩爾助學金資助的。”他的回答是，“爲什麼其他黑人不能學學你？”我不得不提醒他，在美國各地，哪裏都有有才華的人，但機會卻不是平均分配的。有許多人認爲自己之所以取得成功，完全是因爲自身的才華。

EJ: It’s luck, and it’s following your instincts. Early on, I was playing in a band at this cabaret. And I’m thinking, “I don’t want to play to people who are eating fish and chips.” I was tubby and insecure, but something told me this was not going to be what I did. So, when I saw an advertisement for Liberty Records, I rang up for an appointment. I can’t think how I had the courage to do it. But I went in and said, “I can sing and write songs, but I can’t write lyrics.” And off the top of a pile, this guy pulls an envelope and says: “Well, this guy sent in lyrics. Take them home.” They were Bernie Taupin’s, and we’ve been writing together for 48 years. All because I took that leap of faith that’s inside all of us.

約翰：是運氣，是對直覺的聽從。早年間，我曾加入過一個在卡巴萊（指在晚上提供歌舞表演的餐館或夜總會）表演的樂隊。我想“我纔不要給一羣正在吃魚和炸薯條的人表演。”我又矮又胖，沒什麼生活保障，但冥冥之中我就覺得這不是我要做的。所以，當我看見自由唱片公司(Liberty Records)的廣告時，我就打電話去預約面試。我也不知道當時怎麼有這麼大的勇氣。但我進去之後說，“我能唱歌也能寫歌，但我不會寫詞。”面試的人從一堆材料的上面抽出一個信封，說，“這人寄來了歌詞。你拿回家吧。”那是貝爾尼·託潘(Bernie Taupin)創作的歌詞，從那以後我們合作了48年。所有這一切，都是因爲我接受了存在於我們所有人心中的信心之躍(leap of faith)。

PG: But leaps of faith can be scary.

加蘭：但信心之躍有時候可能會把人給嚇住。

EJ: Of course! Fear holds us all back. It’s the most derogatory thing in the human race. Take the crippling problem of H.I.V. in the American South — one of the places our foundation donates a lot of money. A gay African-American male in the South is often afraid to say he’s gay. Then he gets H.I.V., and he’s afraid to say that, too. It’s a double whammy. And it’s because we don’t have enough role models like Darren in this country.

約翰：當然！恐懼令我們退縮。這是人類身上最具貶損意義的事情。以艾滋病病毒在美國南部所帶來的嚴重後果爲例——那裏也是我們的基金會捐了很多錢的地區之一。一個南部的非裔美國人同性戀男性往往不敢公開自己是同性戀。然後，他感染了艾滋病病毒，而且他也不敢跟人說。這是雙重的打擊。這也是因爲在這個國家，像達倫這樣的行爲榜樣還是太少了。

DW: Part of it is also the social construction of black masculinity: macho, low-riding pants. That’s one model — and not to knock it — but we need more. If your choice as a black man is to be an athlete or a rapper, what do you expect society is going to get?

沃克：還有爺們樣子、穿得很低的褲子這些黑人男子氣概的社會建構在作祟。那是一種樣式，不是批評它，但我們需要更多的樣式。如果作爲一名黑人男性你的選擇不是去當運動員就是當說唱歌手，那你又能指望社會會怎麼看？

EJ: Well, I want to make a difference in that. We both do. But changing big problems in this country is hard.

約翰：嗯，我想改變這個狀況。我們都在想這件事。但改變這個國家的一些大問題，真的很難。

DW: This is what’s amazing about Elton — much more so than Elton the musician is Elton the humanitarian. He’s put his name on the line for 22 years though his AIDS foundation. And the path he chose is not the glamour path. He’s focused on the American South because that’s where the highest prevalence is, where the growth in new infections is — and sadly, in states with the frailest health systems.

沃克：這正是埃爾頓了不起的地方，比作爲音樂家的埃爾頓更了不起的是那個作爲人道主義者的埃爾頓。通過他的艾滋病基金會，過去22年裏，他一直在出錢出力。他選擇的這條道路，並非迷人的坦途。他的關注點放在美國南部，因爲那裏的流行程度最高，還有那裏的新發感染增長率，而且，遺憾的是，那裏也是健康系統最爲薄弱的幾個州。

EJ: And the poorest economies. If we leave people behind because of their circumstances, because they’re gay black men or incarcerated or intravenous users, then we give them no hope. And that’s the most evil thing I can think of.

約翰：經濟也最差。如果我們僅僅因爲人們所處的環境不好，僅僅因爲他們是黑人同性戀或者是坐牢或者通過靜脈注射毒品就拋棄他們，他們就會失去希望。這是我所能想到的最爲邪惡的事情。

PG: I was surprised to learn that it was Ryan White who opened your eyes about AIDS, Elton. Why not the thousands of gay men who were dying all around you?

加蘭：我很驚訝，居然是瑞安·懷特(Ryan White)引起了你對艾滋病的關注。爲什麼不是那些在你身邊死去的，成千上萬的同性戀呢？

EJ: I’m ashamed to say that when the AIDS epidemic started, I did nothing. I was taking a lot of drugs. It took this boy, Ryan White, who was being kept out of public school because he had AIDS, to open my eyes. He and his family moved me so much. They responded to their hardship with acceptance and forgiveness — with the same values as our current pope.

約翰：很羞愧，在艾滋病爆發之初，我什麼都沒做。我忙着吸毒。是瑞安·懷特這個因爲艾滋病而被公立學校拒絕的孩子，引發了我的關注。我被他和他的家人深深打動了。面對苦難，他們的態度是容忍、原諒——正是當今的教皇所信奉的價值觀。

DW: Don’t we love the pope?

沃克：我們怎麼能不愛教皇？

EJ: He’s my new hero.

約翰：他是我心目中新的英雄。

DW: Mine, too.

沃克：也是我的。

EJ: So, I was in Indianapolis in the last week of Ryan’s life. My life was crap, and I hated myself. I would complain about this, complain about that. And this beautiful boy never complained about getting AIDS. This may sound like a sweeping statement, but he seemed like Jesus to me — kind and forgiving and full of love. It took a child to die before this country stood up and took any notice of AIDS.

約翰：所以，在瑞安生命的最後一週，我在印第安納波利斯。我的生活跟屎一樣，我恨我自己。我抱怨這個，抱怨那個。這個漂亮的孩子卻從未抱怨自己感染了艾滋病。這聽起來像是一概而論，但在我看來他的確就像是耶穌一般——仁慈、寬容、充滿了愛。一個孩子以生命，換來了這個國家對艾滋病的關注與行動。

PG: And within two years of Ryan’s death, you’re clean and sober, and you started the Elton John AIDS Foundation?

加蘭：在瑞安去世後的兩年時間裏，你戒毒戒酒，創辦了埃爾頓約翰艾滋病基金會？

EJ: Yes, in 1992.

約翰：對，那是在1992年。

DW: And remember, Elton has a much harder job than I do at the Ford Foundation. Elton has to raise money every year to give away. We have a $12 billion trust that generates a lot of money.

沃克：別忘了，埃爾頓的工作可比我在福特基金會的工作要難多了。埃爾頓每年都得籌錢。我們有一個120億美元的信託，它能生出不少錢來。

EJ: And 96 percent of what we raise goes out to the people.

約翰：我們募來的款項中96%都用了出去。

DW: That’s unprecedented. No other organization working on AIDS that has that record.

沃克：這是史無前例的。還沒有哪一個艾滋病組織創下過這樣的記錄。

EJ: I see so many charitable organizations go out of business because they spend ridiculously. We’ve always kept it lean and mean. If people are going to give me money, I want to spend it wisely.

約翰：我看到許多慈善機構因爲揮霍無度而關張。我們總是節省再節省。如果人們給我錢，我就想把它用在刀刃上。

DW: Where we at the Ford Foundation and Elton’s foundation intersect is in our shared belief in the right of every person on this planet to live with dignity. It would be easier for Elton to focus on New York and San Francisco because that’s where the glamour is. But in rural Mississippi, in rural Georgia, there is very little support for people living with AIDS.

沃克：我們福特基金會和埃爾頓的基金會的相交之處，就是我們都相信這個星球上的每個人都有帶着尊嚴生活的權利。如果埃爾頓把注意力放在紐約和舊金山，事情要容易得多，因爲那是些更體面的地方。但正是在密西西比的鄉下，喬治亞州的鄉下，人們很難獲得與艾滋病共處方面的支持。

EJ: The people who are outcast are the ones who need support. We have to lift their spirits up, make sure they feel wanted. Because if you lose that, there’s nothing left.

約翰：被拋棄的人正是需要幫助的人。我們必須讓他們振奮起來，確保他們覺得受到了關愛。如果你失去了被人關愛的感覺，也就完蛋了。

PG: You see H.I.V./AIDS as an issue of social justice?

加蘭：你把艾滋病病毒和艾滋病視爲一個關乎社會正義方面的議題嗎？

DW: When you look at the beginning of AIDS activism, it was galvanized by upper-middle-class white men in New York and San Francisco. But now that the faces are starting to look different — poor rural whites and blacks in Mississippi — continuing the momentum of that movement is hard.

沃克：你看看艾滋病權利運動之初，它是由紐約和舊金山中上階層的白人男性所激發的。但現在，參與者的面孔出現了變化——密西西比州貧困的鄉下白人和黑人——再繼續維持該運動的勢頭就變得很難了。

EJ: We’re swimming faster, but we’re swimming against the tide sometimes. But I’m always optimistic. There’s much more good in this world than bad. You just hear about the bad. Remember: People were dying within six weeks of getting this disease in the ’80s!

約翰：雖然我們游泳的速度更快了，但有時候我們面對的是滔天大浪。不過我總是樂觀的。這個世界上好的東西總是比壞的東西多。但你聽到的，總是壞的東西。別忘了：在八十年代，得了這種病的人不出六週就會死。

DW: I’m like Elton: radically optimistic. My own improbable journey from a small town in Texas to president of the Ford Foundation is a uniquely American story. And there are many stories like mine in America.

沃克：我跟埃爾頓一樣，是理性的樂觀。我從德州的一個小城到今天福特基金會的總裁這段令人難以置信的路程，是一個獨特的美國故事。在美國，還有很多跟我類似的故事。

PG: You’re both bridge-builders: Elton talking to Rush Limbaugh about gay marriage; Darren building a private coalition to help save pensions and the Art Institute in bankrupt Detroit. Did you have to train yourself to work with people who aren’t natural allies?

加蘭：你們兩個都是搭建橋樑的人。埃爾頓跑去跟拉什·林堡（Rush Limbaugh，以保守出名的脫口秀主持人）聊同性婚姻；達倫建立了一個私人聯盟，幫助破產的底特律挽救養老金計劃和藝術學院。你們是否有訓練自己去如何跟天生不可能成爲盟友的人共事呢？

EJ: I’ve been sober for 24 years now, and one of the best lessons it taught me is to listen. When it comes to people like Rush Limbaugh, or people who might enrage you sometimes, dialogue is the only way. You have to reach out.

約翰：我戒酒24年了，它教會我的最重要的一課就是傾聽。對於像是拉什·林堡這樣的人，或者那些有時候會讓你大發脾氣的人，對話是唯一的途徑。你必須去傾聽他們的意見。

DW: And stop asserting ideology. That just lets us keep affirming our own beliefs.

沃克：還有，不要在意識形態上糾結不休。那隻會讓我們沒完沒了地申明自己的信仰。

EJ: Whether you make an impact in one year or 30 years, it doesn’t matter. You have to put your foot in the water and start the process.

約翰：你的影響力究竟只能持續一年時間還是30年時間，並不重要。你必須以身試水，邁出第一步。

DW: God knows, there have been times in my life when I was done an injustice, or had every right to respond with an expletive. But it’s better to hold back and keep trying to find common ground.

沃克：老天爺知道，在我生命中有多少次遭遇不義之舉時，我完全有理由罵回去。但更好的做法是剋制，努力尋找雙方的共同點。

EJ: Better to build a bridge than a wall.

約翰：搭建橋樑比砌牆要好。