柏金和夏洛特甘斯布 繆斯母女檔

“Charlotte?”

“夏洛特？”

“Oui,” Charlotte Gainsbourg answered her mother, Jane Birkin, with a giggle.

“哎，”夏洛特·甘斯布(Charlotte Gainsbourg)笑着回答母親簡·柏金(Jane Birkin)。

It was a little like they were using the telephone for the first time. They last spoke, if you’re curious, about a week ago.

她倆的樣子好像第一次用電話似的。如果你好奇，可以告訴你，兩人上次對話是在一星期之前。

“But we text a lot,” Ms. Gainsbourg said.

“但是我們經常發短信啊，”甘斯布女士說。

“We do,” Ms. Birkin agreed. “But I must get into Skype. Does it work on a mobile?”

“確實，”柏金女士說。“但我肯定是迷上Skype了。它在手機上能用嗎？”

“Oh yeah it does,” Ms. Gainsbourg said. “It’s just you’re always ugly, but it does work.”

“能用啊，”甘斯布女士說。“只不過總是讓你顯得很難看，不過確實能用。”

“Well, if I’m ugly, it’s normal,” Ms. Birkin said.

“好吧，顯得我難看就對了，”柏金女士說。

They both howled with laughter. But there is something to the notion that as poised as they are, this mother and daughter — celebrated for their acting, their singing, their innate style — aren’t afraid of being ugly when it comes to their art. “I hate films when I have to pretend to be pretty,” Ms. Gainsbourg said. “It’s the thing that makes me lose confidence. The pretend is too much. So each time I have dark circles, that’s what I enjoy the most.”

兩人都大笑起來。母女倆的演技、歌喉和天生的風格都曾備受讚譽，她們那麼泰然自若，說起自己的藝術時，完全不害怕顯得醜陋。“我討厭那些需要我假裝漂亮的電影，”甘斯布女士說。“這會讓我喪失信心。僞裝太過分了。所以每次我有黑眼圈的時候都特別開心。”

Ms. Birkin, who first came on the scene with a nude cameo in Michelangelo Antonioni’s 1966 film “Blow-Up,” seemed admiring. “I’ve realized this about you, and I wish I had realized it about myself earlier on,” she said. “When the whole point, when the only point, is that you’re pretty, then it’s horrifying. I’ve done a few with just being really pretty, and it’s very, very stressful. It would be much nicer to have not given a hoot, and I don’t give a hoot anymore now, but it’s a bit late.”

柏金女士最早涉足影視界是在米開朗基羅·安東尼奧尼(Michelangelo Antonioni)1966年的電影《放大》(Blow-Up)的一幕中裸體客串亮相，她對女兒的看法表示讚賞。“我發現了你這一面，我希望自己也能早點意識到，”她說。“當人們只關注你是不是漂亮，這非常恐怖。我拍過一些只靠漂亮臉蛋的片子，壓力非常非常大。對相貌毫不關心感覺要好得多，現在我也已經不在乎了，不過還是有點晚了。”

Ms. Birkin, 69, who is British-born but made her career in France, was speaking from Paris in the phone interview, while Ms. Gainsbourg, 44, was in New York. As actresses, they share a fearlessness that takes them to extremes. Beginning Friday, Jan. 29, the Film Society of Lincoln Center will underscore that quality in presenting “Jane and Charlotte Forever,” a series of 19 films spanning five decades that also highlights the work of daring directors like Jacques Rivette, Agnès Varda, Jacques Doillon and Lars von Trier.

現年69歲的柏金女士生於英國，但事業生涯是在法國開始的，她在巴黎接受了電話採訪，44歲的甘斯布女士在紐約接受了採訪。兩人都是演員，都有趨向極端的無畏性格。1月29日星期五，林肯中心電影協會將推出“永遠的簡與夏洛特”(Jane and Charlotte Forever)展映，其中包括19部電影，時間橫跨50餘年，包括雅克·裏維特( Jacques Rivette)、阿涅斯·瓦爾達(Agnès Varda)、雅克·杜瓦隆(Jacques Doillon)與拉斯·馮·提爾(Lars von Trier)等以大膽著稱的導演們的作品，這些影片無不體現了她們的勇敢無畏。

That appetite for risk is what Dennis Lim, director of programming at the Film Society, is most drawn to. “They’re very adventurous actresses, and they’re actresses that understand the uses of provocation,” he said. “I also like how they’re loyal. They know how to be muses.”

電影協會的放映主管丹尼斯·利姆(Dennis Lim)尤其喜愛她們的冒險精神。“她們是非常大膽的演員，她們非常懂得該怎樣使用挑釁的方式，”他說。“我還喜歡她們的忠誠。她們知道該怎樣成爲人們的繆斯。”

Opening night will include screenings of “Antichrist,” Mr. von Trier’s graphic film starring Ms. Gainsbourg and Willem Dafoe as a couple grieving over their infant’s death, and “La Pirate,” Mr. Doillon’s career-changing film for Ms. Birkin, who plays a woman whose female ex-lover is trying to persuade her to resume their affair.

展映開幕當晚將上映馮·提爾先生的《反基督者》(Antichrist)，甘斯布女士與威廉·達福(Willem Dafoe)飾演一對痛悼幼子之死的夫妻，此外還將上映《海盜》(La Pirate)，該片由杜瓦隆先生執導，一舉改變了柏金女士的演藝生涯，她在其中飾演的女主角一直受到前女友要求複合的糾纏。

The series also includes an exhibition of photographs by Kate Barry, Ms. Birkin’s daughter with John Barry, the British composer. Ms. Gainsbourg recalled that Ms. Barry, who died in a fall two years ago, was “always putting makeup on me, dressing me like a doll” when they were children.

展映系列還包括一組凱特·巴里(Kate Barry)所拍攝的照片，她是柏金女士與英國作曲家約翰·巴里(John Barry)所生的女兒。巴里女士於兩年前的秋天去世，甘斯布女士回憶，兩人小時候，“她總是給我化妝，像打扮洋娃娃一樣打扮我”。

Then, of course, there’s the singer, songwriter, actor and director Serge Gainsbourg, Charlotte’s father, who died in 1991 but still lives on in Ms. Gainsbourg’s handsomely chiseled face and in Ms. Birkin’s voice when she sings his songs. The Film Society will screen his “Charlotte for Ever,” which touches on incest and pedophilia and features a 14-year-old Ms. Gainsbourg, and his “Je t’aime moi non plus” (“I Love You Me Neither”), which stars a 30-year-old Ms. Birkin as a boyish young waitress to whom a gay male truck driver becomes deeply attracted.

當然，別忘了夏洛特的父親，歌手、唱作人、演員和導演，塞日·甘斯布(Serge Gainsbourg)。他於1991年去世，但當人們端詳甘斯布女士英氣勃勃、輪廓分明的面孔，聽到柏金女士唱起他創作的歌曲時，分明還能感受到他的氣息。電影協會此次將放映他的《永遠的夏洛特》(Charlotte for Ever)，內容涉及亂倫和戀童，14歲的甘斯布女士主演了該片；此外還有《我愛你，我也不愛你》(Je t’aime moi non plus)，時年30歲的柏金在其中出演一個男孩子氣的年輕女招待，一個男同性戀卡車司機非常迷戀她。

In another bit of familial overlap, both Ms. Birkin and Ms. Gainsbourg appear in Ms. Varda’s “Kung Fu Master,” in which Ms. Birkin, who wrote and pitched the story upon which the film is based, plays a mother who falls in love with her daughter’s 14-year-old classmate. (The boy, Mathieu Demy, is played by Ms. Varda’s son. That was Ms. Birkin’s idea.)

還有一部影片是兩人共演的——她倆都出現在瓦爾達的《功夫大師》(Kung Fu Master)裏，電影的故事是柏金女士自己寫的，她在其中飾演一個母親，愛上了女兒14歲的同學。這個男孩則是由瓦爾達的兒子馬修·戴米(Mathieu Demy)飾演，這也是柏金的主意。

“Agnès Varda said, ‘Well, if you take Mathieu, then I want Charlotte,’” Ms. Birkin recalled. “I didn’t think Charlotte would say yes. But we wanted her bedroom. It was all shot in our house, and then the kind girl said yes. It was just too much for her to have her bedroom taken up and put another girl in her bed. I said to Charlotte: ‘You know, you can’t get out of it with Agnès. If you said yes, you can’t go back on it.’ She said she wouldn’t. But I didn’t feel she was enjoying herself enormously.”

“阿涅斯說，好吧，如果你要馬修，那我也要夏洛特，”柏金回憶。“”我覺得夏洛特不會答應的。但這部片子都是在我們的房子裏拍，我們需要她的臥室。然後這個好姑娘就答應了。她受不了自己的臥室被佔用，讓另外一個女孩躺在她牀上。我對夏洛特說：‘你知道，你沒法擺脫阿涅斯。如果你答應了就不能後悔。’她說自己不會後悔的。但我覺得她拍片子的時候不怎麼開心。”

Ms. Gainsbourg’s response was swift: “No, I wasn’t. But she was living in our house for a year.”

甘斯布的回答很簡潔：“對，我不開心，但她在我家裏住了一年呢。”

She said she still treasured the time spent in her childhood watching Ms. Birkin on film shoots. It was “as if I could watch her with a microscope,” she said. “There was something so privileged about just being able to put my gaze on her.”

甘斯布說，她至今難忘童年時代看着柏金拍電影時的情形。“就像用顯微鏡觀察她，”她說。“能夠看着她都是一種榮幸。”

She also recalled the first time she saw “Je t’aime moi non plus,” on a little television in her room. “I was maybe 18,” Ms. Gainsbourg said. “It wasn’t a lot of time before my father died, and so I was able to call him up — I don’t know if I told you! I didn’t. But it was such a revelation because I had waited so long. I don’t know — I loved every single thing about it. And that was the first step of watching her as an adult.”

她也記得自己第一次用臥室裏的小電視看《我愛你，我也不愛你》時的情形。“我那年大概18歲，”甘斯布回憶。“那是我父親去世前不久的事，所以我還可以給他打電話——我可能沒告訴過你，我沒說過。但那是個啓示般的時刻，因爲我已經等了太久。我不知道，我竟然會喜歡這部片子裏的一切。從那時起我才把她視爲一個成年人。”

And of course, Ms. Birkin watched Ms. Gainsbourg develop as an actress as a girl. She said she was captivated by her natural ability: “She used to put down her comic book and be able to burst into tears across the garden and then go back to her comic book,” Ms. Birkin said. “It’s extremely focused, her work — she’s always believable. I don’t know whether one could say that about a lot of other actors. If she’s a heroin addict, she’s a heroin addict. If she’s a mother of three, she’s a mother of three. If she’s a virgin, she’s a virgin.

當然，柏金也看着甘斯布從小女孩成長爲演員，她說自己被女兒天生的才華迷住了：“她小時候有一次放下漫畫書，哭着走過花園，然後又回去拿漫畫書，”柏金說。“她的作品總是那麼專注，她的表演總是令人信服。我覺得這種演員並不多見。如果她演一個海洛因癮君子，她就是個癮君子。如果她演三個孩子的媽媽，她就是三個孩子的媽媽。如果她演處女，那她就是處女。”

“In the films she’s doing, she’s found her way to liberty. She can play all these different parts and still cook dinner for the children.”

“在她拍的片子裏，她總能進入無拘無束的境界。她能飾演各種各樣的角色，也能爲孩子們做晚餐。”

Ms. Gainsbourg has three children with the French actor and director Yvan Attal. And his comedy “My Wife Is an Actress,” which stars him and Ms. Gainsbourg, is included in the series. It is yet another example of life’s imitating art. That may not be the case with her ravaged performances in Mr. von Trier’s boundary-pushing films, but for Ms. Gainsbourg, “exploring sick things are the most exciting.”

甘斯布和法國演員、導演伊萬·阿達勒(Yvan Attal)生有三個孩子。阿達勒導演的喜劇片《我的老婆是演員》(My Wife Is an Actress)由夫妻倆親自出演，也將在這次展映中放映。這又是一次藝術對現實生活生活的戲仿。而在馮·提爾那些挑戰邊界的影片裏，甘斯布的表演卻極具破壞性，對於她來說：“探索病態的事物是最刺激的。”

When she was shooting “Antichrist,” she recalled, Ms. Birkin was the only person she could confide in. “It was in a humorous way, because it was so extreme that I had a lot to laugh about,” Ms. Gainsbourg said. “I could go into every detail and not be ashamed about any of it.”

她回憶，拍攝《反基督者》時，她只能向柏金傾訴。“是用一種幽默的方式，因爲那部片子太極端了，有很多可笑的東西，”甘斯布說。“我可以深入每一個細節，並不爲任何東西感到難爲情。”

“Every detail was a delight!” Ms. Birkin said.

“每個細節都很棒！”柏金說。

The freedom that Ms. Gainsbourg experiences with her mother, she said, helped her believe that she could take on “Antichrist.” Her parents could be wild, but as a child, she said, she did not suffer or feel shame. “I’m just thinking about my children and how far can I go without being a big problem for them,” she said. “I think I am a problem for them.”

甘斯布說，她和母親一起體驗的自由令她相信，她可以接拍《反基督者》。她的父母可能很瘋狂，但她小時候並不覺得有什麼羞恥。“我只是考慮我的孩子們，想着我能做到多過分的地步，同時又不給他們帶來麻煩，”她說。“我覺得我對他們來說是個問題。”

Even though Ms. Gainsbourg is the epitome of gangly chic, she hasn’t always felt comfortable in her skin. Her mother, she noted, is literally a fashion icon: “You’re always on mood boards.”

儘管甘斯布是瘦高風尚的典型人物，她對自己卻並不總是感覺自在。她說，她的媽媽纔是時尚偶像：“你總是出現在（設計師的）情緒板上。”

“The thing is, growing up, I was very, very conscious that I didn’t have the look,” Ms. Gainsbourg said. Ms. Birkin laughed, but Ms. Gainsbourg added: “No, I’m not kidding. I felt so — not ugly, but just so ordinary in comparison.”

“問題是，成長期間，我一直都非常非常清楚，我沒有那種相貌，”甘斯布說。柏金笑了，但是甘斯布又說：“不，我沒開玩笑，我覺得自己——倒不是難看，只是和你相比太普通了。”

On a motherly note, Ms. Birkin had the last word: “You did well to be just yourself and not to try and be like anyone else, because there’s nobody else that looks like you, and there’s nobody else that performs like you.”

柏金以一種充滿母愛的口氣做了總結髮言：“你活出了自己的個性，沒有成爲其他人的樣子，因爲你的相貌、你的表演都是如此與衆不同。”