與FT共進午餐之愛德華斯諾登(下)
He confirms he received no money from the movie, adding of his tangential experience of Hollywood: When I was told that there was going to be a film made about me, it was a scary thing, one of the most terrifying things I can imagine.
他證實自己沒從這部電影拿到一分錢，倒是對好萊塢多懂了一點皮毛。當我被告知有人要拍一部關於我的電影時，感覺很嚇人，這是我能想到的最可怕的事情之一。
But, looking back, I hope it helps, I’m cautiously optimistic that it will.
但回過頭來看，我希望它能有所幫助，我謹慎樂觀地認爲它會有作用的。
He looks back over the period since the revelations and reflects that all three branches of government in the US — Congress, courts, president — have changed their position on mass surveillance.
他回顧了爆料以來這段時期的情況，認爲美國政府的三大支柱——國會、法院和總統——已經改變了對大規模監聽的立場。
We can actually start to impose more oversight on spies, rather than giving them a free pass to do whatever simply because we’re scared, which is understandable but clearly not ethical.
真的，我們可以開始對間諜實施更多監督了，而不能僅僅因爲我們害怕，就給他們一張可以爲所欲爲的免費通行證，這可以理解，但顯然不道德。
What of subsequent developments in the UK, where the government’s response has been to propose laws that not only sanction, post hoc, the intelligence activities that were revealed to be happening, but extend them? He says it was not his intention to tell the world how to structure their laws, but to give people a voice in the process.
英國後來的情況怎麼樣？英國政府的迴應是提議立法，不僅批准那些被披露正在進行的情報活動，還要擴大範圍。
The laws have gotten worse in some countries.
他表示，自己的本意不是要告訴世界如何制定法律，而是讓人民有機會在這個過程中發聲。
France has gone very far, so too, of course, countries like Russia, China.
在有些國家，法律已經變得更糟。法國已經走得很遠，俄羅斯、中國等國當然也是這樣。
In Britain there’s an authoritarian trend.
英國出現了一種威權主義趨勢。
We don’t allow police to enter and search any home.
我們不允許警察入室搜查。
We don’t typically reorder the operation of a free society for the convenience of the police — because that is the definition of a police state, he says, mopping up the last of the rice.
通常，我們不會爲了方便警察行事而重新安排一個自由社會的運轉秩序——因爲那便是警察國家的定義，他說着大口吃完最後一點米飯。
And yet some spies and officials are trying to persuade us that we should.
但一些間諜和官員正試圖說服我們應該這樣做。
Now, I would argue there’s no real question that police in a police state would be more effective than those in a free and liberal society where the police operate under tighter constraints.
我得說，警察國家的警察無疑會比一個自由、開放社會的警察更高效，因爲在自由社會，警察的行動受到更嚴格的約束。
But which one would you rather live in?
但你更願意生活在哪一種社會呢？
He has finished his curry and pronounces it quite good.
他吃完了咖喱飯，說非常好吃。
The crab cakes are abandoned after a bite. Less good, he says.
蟹餅只咬了一口就被放到一邊，不太好吃，他說。
We order ice cream — vanilla, strawberry and chocolate for him, sorbet for me.
我們點了冰淇淋，他要了香草、草莓和巧克力口味的，我選了冰沙。
The voice on the phone launches into a complicated explanation of why, with five scoops in all, we can have a discount.
電話那頭的人詳細地解釋了爲什麼我們可以享受折扣——總共給了我們五把勺子。
Does he never lose sleep at night wondering whether Isis terrorists might not have gained some useful advantage from the information he disclosed?
他在夜裏從來不失眠嗎？他難道不會琢磨伊斯蘭國(ISIS)恐怖分子是否從他披露的信息中獲得了一些可以利用的優勢？
Well, firstly, he says, in all the recent European attacks the suspects were known to the authorities, who thus had the ability to target them without having to scoop up everyone else’s data as well.
噢，首先，他說，在歐洲最近發生的所有襲擊事件中，當局知道這些嫌疑人，他們有能力把他們列爲目標，而不必蒐集所有其他人的數據。
Secondly, he points out, Osama bin Laden stopped using a mobile phone in 1998 — not because of leaks to newspapers but because there is an aggressive form of Darwinism in terrorist circles.
其次，他指出，奧薩馬•本•拉登(Osama bin Laden)從1998年就不使用移動電話了——不是因爲誰對報紙泄的密，而是因爲恐怖分子的圈子裏有一種生猛的達爾文主義。
Long before we, the public, know about any of these surveillance measures, they have already known for years because, if they had not, they are already dead.
早在我們——公衆——知曉任何這類監聽措施之前，他們已經知道好多年了，因爲如果他們不知道的話，他們早就死了。
But, he goes on, let’s say that the newspapers had decided this should not be public.
但是，他接着說，假設那些報紙決定這些資料不應被公開。
Let’s say the intelligence services had been able to continue using these programs in secret.
假設情報機構能夠繼續祕密進行這些監聽項目。
Would it have stopped any of the terrorist attacks that have occurred in the last three years? There’s no public evidence that that’s the case.
那樣能阻止過去三年發生的任何一起恐怖襲擊嗎？沒有公開證據能證明這一點。
In fact, there’s no classified evidence that that’s the case, or else we’d be reading it in the newspapers.
實際上，也沒有祕密證據能證明，否則我們就會在報紙上看到。
We move on to talking about stories alleging Russian hacking of the NSA itself and of the Democratic party’s governing body, the Democratic National Committee.
我們接着談論美國國家安全局本身以及美國民主黨的管理機構——民主黨全國委員會(Democratic National Committee)遭到俄羅斯黑客入侵的傳聞。
The former involved a group calling itself the Shadow Brokers, who threatened to auction very sophisticated alleged NSA surveillance tools.
前者涉及一個自稱影子經紀人的組織，威脅要拍賣非常先進的據說是美國國家安全局所使用的監控工具。
The latter was a collection of DNC emails published — to general embarrassment — by WikiLeaks in July.
後者涉及維基解密(WikiLeaks)7月公佈的民主黨全國委員會的一批郵件——讓民主黨上下都臉上無光。
The Shadow Broker leak, says Snowden, doesn’t strike me as a whistleblower: that strikes me as a warning.
斯諾登說，影子經紀人泄密事件並未讓我覺得他們是泄密者，我覺得這是一次警告，是通過信息泄露的方式傳達政治信息。
It’s political messaging being carried out through information disclosure.
至於民主黨全國委員會遭攻擊事件，正如他所言，人們普遍認爲這是俄羅斯黑客所爲。
And the DNC hack, where, as he observes, the conventional wisdom is that it was the Russians? This is part of the problem of this surveillance free-for-all that we’re allowing to occur by refusing to moderate our own behaviour.
這是這種不加限制的監控行爲帶來的一部分問題，正是我們拒絕剋制自己的行爲才使得這種狀況得以發生。
We’ve set a kind of global precedent that anything is possible and nothing is prohibited.
我們樹立了一種全球先例——一切皆有可能，沒有什麼是被禁止的。
Now, the fact the DNC got hacked is not surprising and interesting.
民主黨全國委員會被侵入的事實並不令人覺得驚訝和有趣。
We’re hacking political parties around the world, so is every country.
我們會侵入世界各國的政黨，每個國家都在這樣做。
What makes it interesting is that some of the things taken from this server were published afterwards.
這件事有趣的地方是，從該服務器竊取的一些信息後來被公之於衆。
That’s quite novel.
這一點非常新鮮。
I think.
我覺得。
Which makes him think what? That it’s for political effect.
什麼讓他這麼想？這是爲了起到政治效果。
He says — as someone who used to try and do this sort of thing to the Chinese — that it would be easy to attribute the hack to whoever had done it.
他說，很容易將這次攻擊算到做過這種事的人頭上——就像某些人過去常常試圖這麼對待中國人。
But this creates a problem because, let’s say, the NSA has the smoking gun that says the Russians hacked the DNC, and they tell us the Russians hacked the DNC, how can we be sure? It presumes a level of trust that no longer exists.
然而，這會帶來一個問題，因爲，假設說，美國國家安全局掌握了俄羅斯人侵入民主黨全國委員會的確鑿證據，並且他們告訴我們俄國人侵入了民主黨全國委員會，我們又如何確信呢？這麼做假定了一種不復存在的信任度。
The ice creams arrive along with an espresso, replacing the first set of dishes on the bed.
冰淇淋和意式濃縮咖啡一齊到了，換掉了牀上的第一套餐具。
Snowden spills a bit of chicken curry on the duvet and apologetically mops it up with a towel.
斯諾登不慎把一點雞肉咖喱汁灑到了羽絨被上，他帶着歉意用紙巾拭去。
Aren’t we beginning to discover that no digital databases are secure? We are living through a crisis in computer security the likes of which we’ve never seen, he says.
我們不是正開始發現沒有哪個數字化的數據庫是安全的？他說：我們正在經歷一場計算機安全危機，類似危機我們從未見過。
But until we solve the fundamental problem, which is that our policy incentivises offence to a greater degree than defence, hacks will continue unpredictably and they will have increasingly larger effects and impacts.
然而，我們的政策對攻擊的鼓勵多於對防禦的鼓勵，在我們解決這個根本問題以前，黑客攻擊還會以不可預測的方式繼續出現，其後果和影響也會越來越大。
The answer, he thinks, is that there ought to be some form of liability for negligence in software architecture, such as would apply in the food industry.
他認爲，要解決這個問題，應該規定在軟件架構的設計中存在疏忽行爲須得承擔某種責任，就如食品行業的做法一樣。
He adds, drily: People from my tribe will be extraordinarily mad at me for suggesting regulation in the terms of negligence for software security.
他淡淡地接着說道：我提議針對軟件安全的過失方面制定規章，圈子裏的人聽到會氣得發瘋。
He has finished his ice cream and declines coffee.
他吃完了冰淇淋，謝絕了咖啡。
Life in Moscow is getting better, he says: I’m more open now than I’ve been since 2013.
他說，在莫斯科的生活越來越好了，比起2013年事情發生後的一段時期，我現在更開放了。
He sees few people — such meetings as this are rare — and divides his time between public speaking (which pays the bills) and devising tools to protect the digital security of journalists.
他見的人很少，類似這次的會晤十分少見。他的時間主要用在公開演講（由此帶來的收入用於支付各種賬單）和設計供記者使用的保護數字信息安全的工具。
He would rather not go into the family stuff or how often he sees Lindsay Mills, his partner, who was left behind in Hawaii when he quit his job for the NSA there and disappeared to Hong Kong.
他不願談及家事，也不肯透露多久見一次林賽•米爾斯(Lindsay Mills)。後者是他的女朋友，在他從美國國家安全局離職跑到香港以後被留在了夏威夷。
His American lawyer, Ben Wizner at the American Civil Liberties Union, is reported to be preparing to launch a petition to President Barack Obama to grant Snowden a pardon before he steps down.
據報道，他的美國律師、美國公民自由聯盟(American Civil Liberties Union)的本•維茨納(Ben Wizner)正準備向美國總統巴拉克•奧巴馬(Barack Obama)請願，希望奧巴馬在卸任前赦免斯諾登。
Snowden will only say: Of course I hope they’re successful but this has never really been about what happens to me.
對此斯諾登只表示：我當然希望他們成功，不過這完全與我個人境遇無關。
No matter how the outcome shakes out, it’s something I can live with.
不論結果如何，我都可以接受。
His chances of a happy ending under President Donald Trump would be zero, I observe.
我看，若是唐納德•特朗普(Donald Trump)當了總統，他這事得以善終的可能性必然爲零。
What about under President Hillary Clinton? You’re trying to drag me into a political quagmire, he protests.
但如果是希拉里•克林頓(Hillary Clinton)總統呢？他抗議道：你在把我拖入一個政治難題。
He collects himself, looking intensely at the ground, before sidestepping the question: I think we should have better choices.
他緊緊地盯着地面，凝神想了一會兒，還是沒有正面回答這個問題，而是說道：我認爲，我們應該有更好的選擇。
We’re a country of 330m people and we seem to be being asked to make a choice between individuals whose lives are defined by scandal.
我們是個擁有3.3億人的國家，而我們卻似乎被要求在各個醜聞纏身的人之間做出選擇。
I simply think we should be capable of more.
我就是認爲，我們應該能有更多選擇。
If he’s tough on the options in US politics, his willingness to tweet criticism of Russian politics to his 2.3m followers has not gone unnoticed.
如果說他在談到美國政治的選擇空間時措辭嚴厲，那麼人們沒有忽視的是，他很願意在Twitter網站上，向他的230萬粉絲發表對俄羅斯政治的批評。
A lot of people who care about me tell me to shut up, but if I was married to my own self-interest, I never would have left Hawaii.
許多關心我的人讓我閉嘴，然而如果我只在乎個人利益，我就不會離開夏威夷了。
I can’t fix the human rights situation in Russia, and realistically my priority is to fix my own country first, because that’s the one to which I owe the greatest loyalty.
我無法改善俄羅斯的人權狀況，而且說實在的，我首要關心的是先改善我自己的國家，因爲它纔是我懷有最大忠誠的國度。
But though the chances are it will make no difference, maybe it’ll help.
儘管很可能改變不了什麼，但也許會起作用呢。
He gathers up his dark glasses: it’s time for him to melt into the Moscow crowds.
他拿起墨鏡——隱入莫斯科人羣中的時間到了。
A final question: the Stone film shows him spiriting his trove of secrets out of the NSA on a micro-SD card hidden in a Rubik’s Cube. True or false?
我提了最後一個問題：在斯通的電影中，他通過藏在一塊魔方里的內存卡，把大量機密帶出了美國國家安全局，這是不是真的？
Oliver confirmed in an interview recently that that’s a touch of the dramatic licence, but that’s only because I wouldn’t confirm or deny how it really happened.
奧利弗在最近一次訪談中證實這是戲劇手法，但他這麼說只是因爲我不願證實真實情況是怎樣的，也不願否認。
I will say that I gave Rubik’s Cubes to everyone in my office, it’s true.
我只會說我給辦公室裏的每個人都送了魔方，這一點是真的。
I really did that.
我確實這麼做了。
And with that he is gone.
他說完這句話就走了。
