威廉林賽 我想讓長城文物開口說話

William Lindesay, 59, has written five books on the Great Wall of China. His most recent, “The Great Wall in 50 Objects,” has just been published by Penguin China, and it will be released in Britain and the United States next year. In an interview, Mr. Lindesay, a native of Wallasey, England, discussed a bronze warrior’s face, a recalcitrant curator at the Vatican Museums and how he first got interested in the wall.

59歲的威廉·林賽(William Lindesay)寫過五本關於中國長城的書籍。企鵝圖書中國(Penguin China)剛剛出版了他的新書《虛擬長城展：50件長城文物》(The Great Wall in 50 Objects)，該書將於明年在英國和美國發布。林賽在英國沃拉西出生長大，他在採訪中談到了一塊青銅的士兵面部塑像，梵蒂岡博物館一位難以對付的策展人，以及他最初是如何對長城發生興趣的。

Q. You’ve been living in China for 30 years. What got you interested?

問：你在中國生活了30年。什麼讓你對中國產生了興趣？

A. My first headmaster, who was a church minister, said we should have three books at our bedsides: a Bible, a prayer book and an atlas. I vividly recall seeing in the “Oxford School Atlas” the Great Wall with its battlement symbol. From that moment, I had in my mind that when I grew up I’d go to China and walk along the Great Wall from end to end.

答：我上學時的第一位校長是個牧師，他說我們牀頭應該擺放三本書：《聖經》、祈禱書和地圖冊。我清楚地記得我在《牛津學生地圖冊》(Oxford School Atlas)中看到了長城的雉堞線。從那刻起，我就萌生了長大後要去中國，沿着長城從一端走到另一端的想法。

Like most childhood dreams, that was almost forgotten. But then in my 20s, my brother suggested running the length of Hadrian’s Wall, from Newcastle to Carlisle. During a break, he turned to me and said, “Hey, Will, you should go to China and do the wall!” It was 1984, China was open, there were stories about China in the press. China was on the map, but kind of the great unknown. I thought, well, I am not going to have this chance again. I had no loves or loans to hold me back. I was in good shape — a two-hour, 39-minute marathoner — so I set off.

就像大部分兒時夢想一樣，這個想法也幾乎被淡忘了。但在我20多歲的時候，我的兄弟提議沿着哈德良長城(Hadrian’s Wall)從紐卡斯爾跑到卡萊爾。途中休息期間，他轉過頭來對我說，“威廉，你應該去中國走一遍長城！”那是1984年，中國已經對外開放。媒體有報道中國的故事。從地圖上也能看到中國，但中國對我來說是一個巨大的未知數。我想，好吧，我以後不會有這樣的機會了。我沒有戀人或貸款的牽絆，我狀態很好——跑馬拉松花了2小時39分鐘，所以我就出發了。

Q. You’d written four books already on the Great Wall. Why another?

問：你已經寫了四本有關長城的書。爲什麼還要再寫一本？

A. Thus far I’ve studied the wall by looking at its grand remains, the ruins. You see ruins. You see things are missing, but what and where? Naturally, I visited museums and saw many relics behind glass. Many of the objects just had a name and a date and a place where they were found. Sometimes they would have a tantalizing label like “an important relic for understanding life on the Han dynasty Great Wall,” but they didn’t explain why. So I thought, I’ll have to do that one day. I want to let these objects speak. I also saw objects in Mongolia, realizing that, although the Great Wall as a building is Chinese, as a story it has two sides.

答：到目前爲止，我一直通過觀察宏偉的遺蹟，或者說廢墟來研究長城。你看到了那些遺蹟。發現缺失了一些東西，但缺失的是什麼，它們去哪了？自然而然地，我又參觀了博物館，看到了很多玻璃展窗裏的文物。很多文物都只有名稱、日期及被發現的地點。它們有時候會被貼上引人遐想的標籤，比如“有助於瞭解漢長城沿線生活的重要文物”，但沒有說明原因。所以我想，我將來有一天要做這件事情。我想讓這些文物開口說話。我還在蒙古國看到了相關文物，我意識到雖然長城是中國的建築，但作爲一個故事，它有兩面。

Q. You make a point of telling the nomads’ side of the story, too.

問：你也從遊牧民的角度講述了這個故事。

A. I went to Mongolia in 2011 and realized that for 20 years I had largely studied the wall from just the Chinese side. I was Sinocentric. I visited a private museum there and saw a tiny, yet amazing, bronze belt decoration depicting a Xiongnu warrior’s face, which is Object 3 in the book. These were the people who had attacked the Han dynasty [206 B.C.-220 A.D.] for centuries, but this was the first time I’d seen a representation of what one looked like. This object humanized them.

答：我在2011年去了蒙古國，認識到自己在20年的時間裏主要從中國那一面研究長城。我是以中國爲中心的。我在蒙古參觀了一傢俬人博物館，在那裏看到一個微小但令人驚歎的銅製腰帶裝飾，它描繪了一個匈奴士兵的面部，也就是書中的“文物3”。這些人在長達幾個世紀的時間裏攻擊漢朝［公元前206年至公元220年］，但那是我第一次看到他們的模樣。這一文物賦予了他們人性。

Q. Your method of focusing on objects reminds me of the podcasts and book published by Neil MacGregor of the British Museum, “A History of the World in 100 Objects.”

問：你這種關注文物的做法，讓我想起了大英博物館的尼爾·麥格雷戈(Neil MacGregor)推出的播客和他出版的《大英博物館世界簡史》(A History of the World in 100 Objects)。

A. I’m a great fan of his. He’s a fantastic interpreter of history. Out of the millions of objects in the British Museum, he chose 100 and enthralled people around the world. He showed objects that seem unrelated, but which have so many connections. He showed that the formula worked. But only when you try to do it yourself do you realize how much hard work it is!

答：我是他的鐵桿粉絲。他是一個非常棒的歷史解讀者。他從大英博物館的數百萬件藏品中挑出100件，令世界各地的人着迷。他展現了一些看似無關的文物，但它們之間又有很多聯繫。他的經驗表明這種做法是有效的。但只有當你設法做這些事情的時候，纔會認識到它有多難。

Q. You order your objects chronologically, but start with eight that give an overview.

問：你在書中按照年代編排了這些文物，但開篇卻利用八件文物進行了綜述。

A. I started out with objects to illustrate how Europeans first heard about the wall, and how Chinese did. For foreigners, it was through maps. For the Chinese, it was through the heartbreaking legend of Meng Jiangnu, whose tears of mourning for her husband, a wall builder, caused the fortification to collapse.

答：在書的開頭，我用這些文物說明歐洲人第一次聽說長城的途徑，以及中國人是如何聽說的。外國人是通過地圖瞭解的。中國人則是通過有關孟姜女的悲情傳說了解的，孟姜女爲了悼念修築長城的丈夫而痛哭城下，導致那段長城就此坍塌。

Also, in the opening group of objects I introduced two of the most common building materials. In the west of China I showed that water was a key building material as evidenced by the plethora of broken water pots. Every museum has rooms of pots you have to go through before you get to the gold and jade, but actually pots tell you a hell of a lot.

在開篇中，我還介紹了兩種最普遍的建築材料。我指出，在中國西部，水是很重要的建築材料，大量破水罐就可以說明這一點。每個博物館都有展覽各種罐子的展廳，在抵達黃金、玉器展廳前，肯定要先經過陶罐，實際上通過這些罐子可以瞭解很多事。

Q. What was the most challenging section of the book?

問：書中最有挑戰性的哪個章節？

A. I have a section called “Intrusions.’’ This is the middle period of the Great Wall’s 2,300-yearlong story, after the collapse of the Han dynasty and before the rise of the Ming [1368-1644] and its famous wall. I learned a lot, such as why the Tang [dynasty, 618-907] didn’t build a wall. This is often considered China’s “golden era.” I chose a gorgeous triglazed camel figurine carrying a small group of foreign musicians to illustrate the prosperous trade on the Silk Road, which brought in the taxation to fund alternatives to ultracostly walls, namely pacification policies and military offensives.

答：有一章叫“入侵”。在長城2300年的歷史中，那一章的內容發生在中期，是在漢朝滅亡，明朝［1368年至1644年］和著名的明長城建起之前。我學到了很多，比如唐代［618年至907年］爲什麼沒有修長城。這個時期通常被認爲是中國的“黃金時代”。我選了一件非常漂亮的三彩釉駱駝雕像來表現絲綢之路上繁榮的貿易，駱駝馱着一小羣外國樂師。繁榮的貿易帶來了稅收，從而爲安撫政策和軍事進攻提供了資金，以此替代了花費昂貴的長城。

Q. I note that the heart of your book centers on the Ming Great Wall.

問：我注意到你這本書的核心是在明長城上。

A. Yes, Objects 27 to 41 cover the Ming. Most people who come to China see the Ming wall, typically the brick-and-stone “dragon” snaking through the mountains north of Beijing. That’s the core, the zenith of the story.

答：是的，第27號到第41號文物涉及的都是明朝。來中國的大部分人看到的都是明長城，典型的是那條在北京北部的山嶺間蜿蜒盤旋的磚石“巨龍”。這是本書的核心，是故事的高潮。

Q. Were all the museums you approached helpful?

問：你接洽的所有博物館都樂於幫忙嗎？

A. Museums in Mongolia were most helpful. When I started, my rule was to be able to see each object, and examine it up close. They allowed that. They’d take the plate glass off the display case with suction pads and lift the object out and take it to the office and let me look at it. The national museum’s curator said the only thing we haven’t got here is live horses, but you must include this in your 50 objects. Without the Mongolian horse, he said, there would be no nomads attacking China, no cavalry, no means of conquering. I included it as a “living antiquity.’’

答：蒙古國的博物館是最願意幫忙的。一開始，我的要求就是要能看到每一件文物，並且近距離地觀察。他們允許了。他們會用吸盤取下展示櫃的厚玻璃板，取出文物並將其帶到辦公室讓觀察。國家博物館的館長說，我們唯一沒帶來的就是活馬了，但你必須把馬收進你的50件文物裏。他說，沒有蒙古馬，就不會有遊牧部族襲擊中國的行動，不會有騎兵，不會有徵服的手段。我把它當做“活的文物”收錄進了書裏。

Q. Which museum was the least cooperative?

問：哪家博物館最不配合？

A. I was very keen to include a 7-meter-long [23 feet] map that was in the Vatican Museums, listed there as the Borgia Great Wall Scroll and dating from circa 1695. I wrote to them, but they didn’t reply. I wrote in Italian, but still no reply. I went there, but not at the right time. It had been sent overseas on loan for the first time.

答：我非常渴望把梵蒂岡博物館(Vatican Museums)一幅七米長的地圖收錄進來。那幅地圖被該博物館命名爲《波吉亞長城古卷》(Borgia Great Wall Scroll)，可追溯至大約1695年。我寫信給他們，但對方沒回信。我又用意大利語寫，還是沒收到回信。我親自去了，但時間又不對。那幅地圖首次被借到外國去了。

I later saw the museum was soliciting money to conserve it, and asking for donors. So I raised the money, $25,000, and offered to help. I was astonished when they told me that another group had pledged to fund the map’s repair. Never giving up, I wrote again to the curator — who finally gave me a reply, but a rather nasty and unfriendly one. He didn’t want to let any outsider in, least of all one who is considered a friend of China, as I am, for the conservation contributions I have made to the Great Wall.

後來，我看到梵蒂岡博物館在爲保護那幅地圖籌集資金，請人捐款。於是我籌集了2.5萬美元，表示願意幫忙。沒料到他們告訴我，另一個團體已經承諾爲地圖的修復出資了。我不肯放棄，又給那個策展人寫信。對方最後回信了，但回信態度惡劣，很不友好。他不想讓任何外人蔘與進去，尤其是像我這樣一個被認爲是中國的朋友的人——因爲對保護長城做出了貢獻，我也的確是中國的朋友。

Museums are the best classrooms for knowledge and education, but some curators are like prison wardens, holding the keys, keeping the antiquities imprisoned, not allowing visitors, trying to keep people out.

博物館是學知識、受教育的最好的課堂。但有些策展人就像監獄裏的看守一樣，手拿着鑰匙，把文物關起來，不允許有人蔘觀，想方設法地把人拒之門外。